I did a poor job of hearing you through all your pain, a pain which is very genuine and proper considering all the terrible things youve likely been through. Double, Bubble, Toil and Stumble, by RC Sproul Jr. seems to me that enabling is not the same thing as really helping, and a lot of people think they are helping when they are just enabling the status quo, a hospital detox AND good psychiatric care are NOT the same thing as enabling because they are designed to STOP the status quo, agreed: if a person does not want to stop drinking, they cant be forced; but if the person gets into enough trouble (ie. or a swindler [scams, cons] Making the excuses in advance; yes. Now youre just provoking more? They were fine with either term but actually preferred alky. So in deference to their preferences its what Ive used ever since then. Treatment can help only those who reach rock bottom. For the first time ever, Ive got the first comment, all the way from England. Cultural/societal/political issues are at play in all of life. They and their families are all the better for it. That is an exaggeration and overstatement. I have had plastic surgery three times. If nothing else, theyll get a breather. I wish I could get them out of it, as I cant even visit I am so appalled by it. Its about Love. That is also comparing apples to oranges. Its about loving the wayward soul back to being restored. In keeping with that opinion I do not feel that it is my responsibility to try to make anybody agree with me on this issue, nor my responsibility to agree with anybody else not even agree with the majority opinion should there be such a thing. He is still employed and has his children. I absolutely am. This man needs help. Some medications break the cycle the body is running on-producing anxiety. Exactly! I was trying to offer some even-handed commentary. They also throw in the slander term. You said, Sr. CAN cut off the paychecks. All people do. (LogOut/ Again, 1 Cor. ^ " ^ . Velour wrote: Not even your friend pastor Wade Burleson advocates that. And what about all of the other people in the pews who watch that go downwho have problems? RC Jr is all about covenant theology. What does it say of the covenant when all that is necessary to be a covenant member is youve been baptized as an infant but you can go on sinning like the devil with no remorse for your wickedness? Wasnt it radiology or something like that? I made a few personal connections with ppl. Im not sure about that. That is an important element here. She died after a 10-year battle with progressive supranuclear palsy, a rare neurological disease for which there is no cure and about which little is known. Thanks ever so much. By the way, he was the only individual who thought I was worthy of a promotion and signed the papers for my promotion. I think this is the belief of the Ligonier teacher R.C. Why should a pastor be held to a different standard? How can an unregenerate unrepentant un-remorseful drunkard be allowed to pass himself off as a member in good standing of any Bible believing church? Not everyone has a spiritual gift to deal with these issues. Barbara advocated that people with substance abuse problems be kicked out of the church. accrue great personal financial gain from donors, or Thank you, Jeff, for sharing your story about growing up in an alcoholic family. Let me explain myself. And even if they remain in their brand of the church, its a pretty poor imitation of Christianity: all surface appearance and no substance. There is no cause and effect, no correlation at all, between RC Jrs family deaths and his heavy drinking. I did go back to my faith family. I would tend to agree with her about this person, assuming that he has, as some have claimed, publicly and speaking from some position of religious prominence defended his actions. despite the nasty barbs. It should also be noted that removing someone from the church, for a time, does not mean they are declared an unbeliever. RC Jrs message has long been that heavy drinking is manly and if you want to be a real man (like him?) I think its the same person. @ Velour: I even opened up to church people about some of the problems I had but was met with platitudes and put downs, not support. . I doubt it. And he doesnt strike me as a would-be follower, so hed have to start another church and lead it in a sober way, and with his record of installing yes-men to advise him in his former churches, the outlook just does not seem terribly optimistic, to be realistic. Isnt there some kind of authoritative oversight in the Presbyterian denomination? He did get booted out of office and will most ptobably lose his law license . Joining another church across town was never a good enough reason. Perhaps you have very little experience with people (men and women) who have gotten clean and sober. Yes, there sure is. Alcoholics cannot be helped and wont be helped if they dont want it. Having said that, I suggest you read the verses I gave (1 Cor 5:11-13). Im also responsible for furnishing Dee with the MADD letter. at no time did she mention in-patient medical treatment for R.C. didn't want to slow down enough to safely take the corners. Vesta Sproul: Advice for Young Converts NonConformist Ministries 38 subscribers 7.3K views 2 years ago In this video Andy Woodard of NonConformist Ministries interviews Vesta Sproul, wife of. Alcohol is generally an excuse. The Orlando Sentinel published a fitting obituary on December 15, here included in part: [2]. It works some of the time. Sopy Yeah, this is exactly why I left church behind. He calls it contumacy and breaking your covenant vows. You could join St. Peter Presbyterian easily but just try leaving without his permission, and getting permission was impossible unless you had a good reason to be moving far away. If it makes someone uncomfortable, me thinks they may need to do some self examination about their drinking. For those who care about womens issues it was an all female surgical team. RC Sproul, Jr. was interacting with people, so I joined in. I am sorry to hear this. I think God understands this. When there are cover-ups to protect the leader, whole families shunned because they dont like the church, those are certainly red flags. Barbaras comment on Friday at 5:40 p.m. Read More Contact Vesta Sproul's Phone Number and Email Last Update 11/9/2022 8:43 PM Email v***@ligonier.org Engage via Email Contact Number (***) ***-**** Engage via Phone Mobile Number (***) ***-**** Engage via Mobile We all grieve over our grown children when they inflict pain on themselves and others knowing that most of the time our help is rejected. Here is what he REALLY said. Part of the problem is that anxiety which found its start in a serious situation, like my daughters brain tumor, leads to the body getting used to being anxious. Im not sure about that. @ Nancy2 (aka Kevlar): Alcoholics are liars- the best liars. This truck had lap belts, which Im pretty sure we werent using. Id say that was posted by a chatbot if it werent for the fact that there did seem to be some semantic link between the sentences. How much can I eat and not gain weight? Temporarily remove the alcohol factor from consideration. (Stay Sweet), As one woman I know who got help for being married to an alcoholic said to me, As others have pointed out rather than enable RC2, RC should have insisted no special treatment be given to RC2 and thus forced RC2 to hit rock bottom. You said, @ okrapod: Finally she allowed a member to take her to the hospital, but it was too late to save her life. In the meantime, here is the link: http://www.ligonier.org/blog/forsaken-jesus-became-curse/. This comment seems especially relevant. Does he have other actual convictions for DUIs or endangering the children? . From drinking, to how the non-Xtian men I know have treated women, to spending moneyI have not seen the kind of demonic pandemonium that certain Evangelicals would have us believe results when non-Xtians do anything. I dont think he knows what it is to love someone other than himself, and he doesnt do a good job of even that. After all the assistant still needed to run numerous errands for RC, and a little thing like a suspended driver's license wasn't going to get in the way of that. If you want to raise some new issues, go for it. We part company, however, over the theological issue of how to deal with people who are struggling with addictions in the church. Im just saying that secular psychology or psychiatry or medications are not always successful or helpful in treating various issues, either, at least not for everyone. Personally, I choose to abstain, and I wish everyone wouldn't complicate their lives with it at all. Her main mistake, perhaps, was not adding more context to indicate that the kicking out was not due *only* to the alcoholism. Julie Anne reminded me about the path RC-Jr took, after MY post previously. One or two DUIs is usually not enough. Most, not all, have btdt with the Church. Someone who lurks here and has a family history of alcoholism, and struggles with the issue as a Christian, found Barbaras response to H.U.G. Drug court was denied because he was not bad enough, not because he had felonies. This gives the full context (thanks to Daisy): I see now that verses 12-13 do indeed deal with the issue of putting an openly rebellious, unrepentant professed believer out of a church. That wouldnt be me. @ Claire: Our President Donald Trump doesnt drink at all. The Bible among other things, is used to provide nourishment to ones soul, to give guidance, to provide proper understanding, to strengthen faith, to provide hope, and to give us examples of the love of God, that we may sincerely do likewise; also to establish order within the body of believers. His mother died on the same day that his son RC Jr was born, on July 1, 1965 (obituary says July 3, 1965). From what has been described here by people who know R.C. All this to say, I am so very glad you survived! I weary, honestly I do, of you constantly finding the negative in things and never being able to cite people who you know who have benefited from outside help: 12-Step programs, in-patient treatment programs, therapy, psychiatry, etc. If you think gossip is on the same level, go turn all of the gossipers you know in to the police. 14:23). Sproul: I did some research. And yet you keep raising issues over and over again, saying that I support things that I do not. Barbara Roberts wrote: Search Vestal obituaries and condolences, hosted by Echovita.com. I was very clear that R.C. If he Sproul gets clean and sober he will probably ditch many ideas that he used to justify including patriarchy. But please accept the fact that we dont all agree with you on all the details, including what if any role a local church should play in the life of an alcoholic. One of the hardest things was having the front half of my head shaved. This man, if all that is being said is true, is guilty of causing scandal-that is lots worse than just being some pitiful old drunk. If they will listen to anyone at all it has to be someone whos been there themselves. I wholeheartedly agree with your comment. Daisy wrote: It doesnt always work when you are in the Boys Club or RC1s son. Q. I wouldnt wish it on my worst enemy, including my ex-pastor who did it to me (and the doctor before me and to the woman in finance before him) or the other horrible pastors/elders. The next time, his children or people in other cars may not be spared. The prosecutor also has to agree to the terms of a plea deal and the probation report is also given to the prosecutor. It was spiritual abuse, a form of abuse that sounds remarkably similar to the same abuse RC Jr has inflicted on dozens of people. which is not that far off base: he needs to be born again as this persistent pattern of behaviour shows he is NOT regenerate and is NOT in Christ at all. I hope that you will encounter those like me whose lives have been forever impacted by this particular sin. But getting someone into treatment is the first step of many to helping them. So youre uncomfortable with those truths. Sr didnt dissuade them he encouraged it. The surgeon told me no steel plate because if my body had rejected it, I would not have survived a second surgery to remove the plate. The only way he could/would ever do this would be by the power of God giving him the grace and strength. I am a broken, wounded woman, who happens to have different people in my life who cut, starve, purge, overeat, get drunk, medicate with R/X drugs, smoke pot, work themselves ragged, overspend, in hope to silence the agony of depression, intense anxiety, raging self-contempt, hopeless despair, excruciating shame, and (false) guilt. I am glad you got help and that your life is better. It runs in the family and has only one Redemptive Hope for each and all who hear the Gospel and by Grace and through Faith put their full Hope in the Righteousness of Christ to Cover (atone for) all mysin or your sin. Both yesterday and today you repeatedly made comments to me, saying that I thought things about R.C. Hi VELOUR, It lets him off the hook for all the spiritual abuse and leaves him free to weasel his way back into ministry once the dust settles. i have mental pictures of what everyone looks like wonder how accurate i am. RC Sproul Sr-time to protect those grandchildren. Sproul went home to be with the Lord this afternoon around 3 p.m. surrounded by his wife, Vesta, and family in his hospital room in Altamonte Springs, Fla. Sigh. Acting out is not a good substitute for the more direct communication, but sometimes the real story is so painful that there are no words. So very Dark Ages. Maybe my white coat still hanging in the back of my closet may still have a blood stain which did not wash out. Perhaps you are being blinded by the guys alcohol addiction. Gods Word says that whatever does not proceed from faith is sin (Rom. We did not do that with the lady in question who was going on and on about codependency. He mocks people who dont drink like he does. I work with a lot of young people who have an alcoholic parent just met a new one today & it guts families & childhoods. Sproul was founder of Ligonier Ministries, first minister of preaching and teaching at Saint Andrew's Chapel in Sanford, Fla., and first president of R Dr. R.C. Youre too quick to take offense because youre reading things that havent even been said. Unfortunately, I am in a lot of pain and maybe looking at surgery so I am having trouble keeping up with things. If she were experienced her statement would have started with, As far as we know Those who do have practical experience know that its exceedingly difficult to know for certain if their alkie loved one is really dry unless that is theyre sloppy drunk with a low tolerance for the stuff, which RC Jr is not. My heart aches for what RC must have had to deal with and for what Vesta and Jr's children still deal with today. Ill be praying for you and your circle. Our sin is as sinful as is his. There are other problems with such groups, as well. I do believe the Word of God is the Word of God and is far superior to anything we could ever dream up in our own minds. I offered H.A. I really doubt most alcoholics CAN go to inpatient treatment for 30 let alone 90 days. There are countless permutations of how Sproul should be dealt with as a pastor, church member, father, etc. Or for the other secret alcoholics in the pews who are struggling and ashamed and who need help? My brother is a drug addict & alcoholic. Were all (finally) in agreement that the man needs treatment. And he does say at the end of the article the Bible does not condemn alcohol, and so I cannot forbid my brother in Christ from drinking. We all hope that Dr. Sproul attempted to intercede with his sons alcoholism, rather than leaving his sons conscience to deal with it he was obviously in trouble. Bear in mind the differences between (a) information, (b) personal opinion and (c) medical opinion. Daisy, We are also to bear one anthers burdens, help one another, etc. Hes apparently a carbon copy of Mark Driscoll, only with an alcohol problem. I dont doubt any of the bad things that people claim that R.C. telling me that I cant comment to people who are expecting replies from me isnt ok. Its one thing for churches to give crummy, harmful (medical / psychological) advice to people Put that drink away now! Here as I type these words, there is a bottle of wine sitting on the kitchen counter within my view. No sir (or maam), I did not create a false correlation. All the years of being there listening to the beratement and anger gave me the ability to listen as well to the pain and fear. Its an honour to count you as friends. You appear to be equating church discipline with spiritual abuse. -Which will bum Velour out for me to say, because she thinks Im not chipper and positive enough about things, but I am stating my reality. RC sr. would have pontificated from on high with that authoritative voice the nonsense he often says, like he does with science, which he knows next to nothing about. 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